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How to beat Helicopter?
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zertul

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zertul

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Hello there uniwar community!

I didn't found a better place to ask this so my apologies if I'm wrong here.

The topic says it all.. how to beat players who "spam" Helicopters and/or back them up with a lot of Infantry. I've tried a lot of things but in long term I always end in getting raped by them with my favorite insects.

So any tips for a new but very ecxited player?^^


best regards,
zertul

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 15, 2011 14:10

lion2

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lion2

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  zertul wrote: Hello there uniwar community!

I didn't found a better place to ask this so my apologies if I'm wrong here.

The topic says it all.. how to beat players who "spam" Helicopters and/or back them up with a lot of Infantry. I've tried a lot of things but in long term I always end in getting raped by them with my favorite insects.

So any tips for a new but very ecxited player?^^


best regards,
zertul


With very few exception, Saps always beat Khrals, and Khrals always beat Titans.
There is no good way for Khrals to beat Heli+marine spam.
Just don't play that scenario.

(note - I am ignoring naval maps here - since ships can alter the balance of power).



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simsverd

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simsverd

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of course it is possible...

use terrain to your advantage and awoid letting your opponent do the same...

you have to use the right balance of swarmer/garuda/ling when playing vs saps... (you must adjust what you make according to what the opponent have got...)

Get infector if he gets to many marines - but protect it well... the saps will take it down if possible.

Wyrm is also good on sertain maps - protect it with lings or other units if possible.

1 pinzer in front could be good in some situations.


Invite me ingame if you like, and we could play some games...

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Send me a PM here or invite me to a game if you want to ask me something, suggest a map for tourney or just wanna play a game
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lantry

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lantry

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Yeah, a lot of people prefer Titans for brute strength, but in reality they are mainly defense; sapiens have the strongest offense IMO. I used to like sapiens for the brute force, but as I gained more skill I realized the potential in Khralies. [/rambling]
Khralies have the most tactical play IMO. when against sapiens, use mostly garudas. swarmers are alright for backup, but i usually do without them. pinzers are good to use as a shield for your hurt garudas. infectors are for later game; you need to have a decent amount of units as helis can quickly jump through a gap and kill the infector. I would skip wyrms entirely, unless you are in a high-credit map where you can produce one in < 2 turns. Last but not least are the underlings, the icing on the cake. bury them on terrain with a favorable differential (mountains to plains, plains to swamp, etc) and try to lead the marines into a trap, or sneak them around back to prey on weakened units and unguarded bases.
The most important thing to remember, however, is to take out helis before they can escape and heal. keep in mind that your units are cheaper, so don't be afraid to send a garuda into enemy lines to take out a heli; this will still be a victory for you even if the garuda dies (which it probably will).
lion1

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lion1

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The last 2 posts are misleading - seeming to imply that Khrals usually have a chance against Saps. In most cases they have no chance. Obviously if the Sap player is weak and makes mistakes then the Khral player can win. But otherwise the Saps have too big an advantage on most maps.

2 exceptions that I know of are that red Khrals can beat blue saps on Desolate and on Great-wall. But these are the exception. On most maps Khrals have no chance against Saps.

Send me game invitations if you need a demonstration.

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simsverd

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simsverd

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i would love a demonstration... but i fear that you are better than me.. so it might not be "acurate"... (i will invite you anyway)

I have read on this forum that many good players favour khral because they are stronger... so it would be interesting if some of the other top-players also comment on the subject....


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lion1

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lion1

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  simsverd wrote: i would love a demonstration... but i fear that you are better than me.. so it might not be "acurate"... (i will invite you anyway)

I have read on this forum that many good players favour khral because they are stronger... so it would be interesting if some of the other top-players also comment on the subject....


I love this game and I want it to get balanced, which I why I keep writing about balance issues.

Every so often I get a game invite from a Khral player. It is clear they think they know something I don't.
Most of the time their tactics include some combination of:
- Build a pinzer and hide units behind it.
- Build a wyrm behind the pinzer
- Hide infector behind pinzer
- Spam swarmers - protect them with underlings.


I assure you that none of these tactics work and I win 100% of these matches by simply playing Saps and spamming Helis + Marines.

The trick is lots of marines. You should try to have at least 5 marines for each Heli.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 17, 2011 10:28

dewgong

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dewgong

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I usually build a few swarmers and garudas when playing against saps then just snipe with swarms and use the garudas as an attacking body sheild
amarito

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amarito

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i'm new to this game (and already addicted) and in my experience it's very difficult to beat players playing good tactical marine+ heli spam. Marines are hell on earth : it's the swing unit because it can easily kill garudas - the only defensive unit matching somewhat heli strength. Two ways to counteract marines : pinzers or infectors (tricky/opportunistic).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 23, 2011 15:54

cogger

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cogger

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Im not a khral player, but i like saps. As a sap player, i rely on marines a lot. Marines with gang up is pretty deadly, try a protected infector to shake things up. A plague is even worse, i wouldnt want the plagued anywhere near my healthy units. As. For the helis, try garuda gangup supported by swarmers or a wyrm. Hope this helps
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waxoid

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waxoid

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All the tips on this (resurrected) thread are good, but I agree with lion1 – Sap-Khral remains badly unbalanced when played anywhere near the mainline. As does Khral-Titan and most Titan-Sapien matches (per this thread http://www.uniwar.com/forum/posts/list/1258.page; Titan limited mobility plus hard-to-defend naval means it is easier to build maps that they lose on, but on most/normal match-ups with Sapiens Titans can force a win.) In other words the rock-scissors-paper dynamic is still really strong, despite the accumulated adjustments.

So some thoughts on the importance of balance – first, an admission that these issues are really only *the* decisive factor for a relatively tiny percentage of games being played. In the larger majority of games (e.g. <2400 at least?), player skill has a vastly larger effect on outcome than game balance - in other words, the game generally works and only breaks down at pretty high levels of play. That said, I'd make the case that an engaged and self-renewing top tier of players is critical for a robust strategy game community, and as it stands the balance problems are daunting enough that you see players get burned out overly fast due to diminishing returns on continuing investment in improving skills (when the conclusive factor becomes more exclusively just what races are assigned.)

Second point is that the balance tweaks the devs have continued to make generally do have an impact and make things better, so thanks for that! Usually, the impact is small, and some changes are debatable, but over time it adds up to progress. Can anyone imagine still playing in a world where helis heal +2, marines have 4 anti-air and infectors have only 6 mobility? It's clearly better now, and I think the devs should keep making tweaks and trying to get cross-race balance closer. In doing so it's really great to closely involve top players, hopefully that's happening. Also important for balance changes in one matchup to not make the other match-ups worse.

So the question is what to do here. Some comments on khral-sap in next comment.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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The Sap-Khral balance problem is not hard to see – khral has little good options against marines with heli support. 1) underlings, but they have 0 anti-air and get continually stomped by the helis. 2) swarmers, also terribly weak against helis unless you've amassed a swarm (which is a different topic and not generally a winning anti-sap plan… although the +3 ranged gangup is definitely a help.) 3) Garuda, famously vulnerable to marines, have to park next to them to attack and have only 7 attack against. 4) pinzers, but they have only 1 anti-air, get pounded by heli gang-up and in many map situations have to tread on unfavorable terrain to boot. That leaves infectors and wyrms, which are generally important options for pulling off an upset, but basically are hard to defend and don't win against well-placed helis (and/or double-moving marauders.)

Suggestions, I think all these could be tried as a group:

- Pinzer aerial attack to 3. Pinzers are niche units as currently played, seems like there's room to make them a bit more effective and add some strategic elements to some maps – if they can deter marines, Sap players might be forced to build (gasp!) additional unit types like tanks and batteries. (Perhaps some would feel this takes away from the purity of Sap only ever having to build the two unit types, but I clearly see that as something to change!) A little more anti-air won't turn pinzers into go-to units overnight, and with mobility, gangup, terrain etc. helis will still be able to beat up on pinzers when they need to but now they will at least pay a small tax, marines will have to deal with emboldened pinzers, and Khral could better involve Pinzers in finishing/gangup attacks vs. helis in addition to being defensive walls. Impact to Khral-Titan: none, as Titans have no aerial units (good).

- Garuda g. light attack to 8. Help the crucial Garuda hold their own against marines a tiny bit better, recognizing how often those marines will be on favorable terrain. Impact to Khral-Titan: small, because Garudas are rarely used there (excepting naval).

(Cont'd...)
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waxoid

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waxoid

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- Upgrades to plague (the virus has become more virulent): plague is currently relatively weak and (while sometimes very impactful) a bit of a niche thing overall, no great ideas but a couple of thoughts: (a) plague spreads *immediately* whenever an uninfected unit is next to an infected one, not just at the beginning of a player's turn (i.e. can't attack with a heli without risk of infecting units next to the hex it attacks on); (b) plague damage could increase over time (-1, -1, -2, -3…)

- Infector defense to 1. Given that unit conversion is a special ability designed to balance the larger rock-scissors-paper dynamic (working in the opposite direction) I think small boosts to mobility and defense are worth considering across the board. With a defense of 1, infectors could survive a heli hit on base.

- bigger guns, not necessarily recommended but may really need to be (re-)considered if the above is insufficient, as may well be the case: heli defense to 9 (that one would maybe need to go along with restoring +2 healing, *not* making some of these other suggested changes, maybe touching other things), Garuda aerial attack to 10 (would make it higher probability, though still not fully reliable, to kill heli with a 2-hit gang-up, and would have the positive side effect of giving Garuda a better shot against the Swarm in k vs. k.) The former unfortunately hurts Sap-Titan.

thoughts welcome.
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waxoid

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waxoid

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for good measure a quick summary of possible changes for the other two match-ups, open to commentary:
* Khral-Titan
- make UV work against buried underlings. Rename it if necessary ("Neutron Pulse"? … Titan tech breakthrough)
- make stomp damage vary randomly between 1 and 2.
- assimilator mobility to 7. Possibly increase assimilator defense to 1 (no 1-hit by wyrm on plains).
- (recent speeder mobility and eclipse g. heavy attack buffs both help here)
* Titan-Sap
- engineer mobility to 7 and defense to 1
- make UV affect Khral only (side effect of renaming/customizing the technology against Khraleans, say...)
- increase battery vs. g. heavy to 11
* general Titan
- don't make/allow ranked maps that have ridiculous (all forest/mountain) terrain or exposed/hard-to-defend naval bases (Land Bridge works better than say Green Isle).
amarito

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amarito

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very interesting thoughts waxoid.
i'm not really for increasing the power of healer units, they are already cheap and pretty strong, i'm afraid upgrading them will make the games convoluted and weird (chasing unarmed bizarro units). Plague is pretty weak but the infector compensate that with superior healing and two khral units already having a +2 repair rate which turns into a staggering +6. Besides the infected marine is uber strong.
Maybe upping aerial attack of the pinzer will do the trick to balance sap/khral.

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